Josh Zello: 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Counselor's Chair podcast. I'm your host, josh Zello, and I'm excited to be back with you for an episode with my friend, gabe Whitmer. Gabe is created and manages one of the top 20 performing mortgage lending teams in the nation, and his team also lands in the top 10 in customer service nationwide year over year. He's a local Chattanooga investor and co-owns Contract Coffee in the Upper Peninsula. On top of all this, gabe is a dedicated husband, father and friend, and a guy that I really respect for his ability to connect with folks and maintain relationships, and that's exactly what we talk about in this episode. So thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy.

Josh Zello: 0:40

Also, for anyone interested, I'll be doing a free live stream on March 25th from 12 to 1 pm Eastern, called 10 Ways to Manage Adult ADHD. I'll leave the link in the description below and feel free to pass it along or register yourself. Enjoy. Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. Sorry for the four-year-long hiatus. We took a little break for the pandemic and then didn't have time to pick it back up, but excited to be back in the saddle and with Gabe today. So, gabe, thanks so much for coming on.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:13

Yeah, hey, thanks for having me. I feel honored to be the number one guest after the four years. This is great.

Josh Zello: 1:18

I mean, I think for me, as I was going through people that I would like to have on, I mean your positive disposition, man, it's just like contagious and I was like you know what. To be back in this for the first time, have Gabe in front of me and get this back underway sounded like a great plan. So thanks again, dude. Yeah, absolutely, I have a question for you out of the gate, and I've actually been wanting to ask you this for years. I have this memory of you, and it was at my kid's birthday party. We were actually standing on the back deck and you had been killing it at AT&T with management and a management position, if I understood that correctly, and you were looking to make a bit of a change, and I think you were debating back and forth between what you're doing now and, maybe, financial advisor. Were you going back and forth between the two?

Gabe Whitmer: 2:08

there's a couple out there. Yeah, there's a couple. We were like playing and navigating and trying to figure out what to do yeah, so you were, but they were all self-starts, right, they were all.

Josh Zello: 2:18

they were all. How do we get, how can I get the ball rolling on my own thing? You know, which made a lot. I mean, to me it made a lot of sense at the time. You got all the characteristics to to kick something off and and get people on board. But what's wild is is obviously you chose the lending route and have built an amazing thing in the last. That had to have been 10 years ago, 10, 11 years ago, and it's been kind of wild to watch from a distance. You've built this behemoth of an organization and an incredible life. Man, it's really been cool to see and I've been curious. It's like something switched in you, like something happened right around that time or maybe in the years subsequent, because I think you were with maybe two different banks before you wound up with First Bank, if I remember right. So your life just exponentially grew. It's like you put the pedal down to the metal and just floored it. Describe that time in life a little bit and what switched over for you.

Gabe Whitmer: 3:22

Yeah. So coming out of AT&T was fascinating. I was managing an area. I had two guys One had been there 10 years, one had been there eight years Got themselves into some code of business conduct issue Never had had an employment issue prior.

Gabe Whitmer: 3:39

What they did was wrong and HR came and said Gabe, you make a decision whether we want to put them on a notice or whether we want to terminate them. And I thought about it for a long time and I looked at histories and I looked at what they've done for the company and I was like these guys have been really loyal. They've had chances to leave. I'm going to put them on a final notice that gives them a year to kind of work off of it, stay employed, improve themselves. And the next morning I walked in and my boss had termination paperwork on the table. And it was this flip of for me of I can be a company guy to they're not going to make the decisions I expect them to make. And AT&T is a great company, right, huge company. They did a lot of things for me well, they taught me a lot of amazing stuff. But it was that moment, and it was probably like six months after that, that we were on your deck and I was like this isn't going to last. I can't work for a company that this is how they treat people in the end. And again, great memories, great friends still at AT&T. Then it was do I want to start something from the ground up? Do I want to jump into financial planning?

Gabe Whitmer: 4:49

I got recruited by at the time FSG Bank, a good friend of mine, jill Green. She now runs a hedge fund. She said hey, let me bring you into mortgage, let me train you. They did something unprecedented. They put me into a six-month sales. I processed, I underwrote, I learned the business and they just taught me. And so many people had said, oh, it's an old man's game, you can't learn it, it is what it is, you'll never get into it and I don't golf right. So it was interesting. And so FSGB Bank merged with Atlantic Capital Bank and Atlantic Capital Bank got bought by First Bank.

Gabe Whitmer: 5:34

And it was interesting when First Bank bought Atlantic Capital, first Bank came and said what do you want? And I said I want to grow. And they said how do you want to grow? And I said I want to grow. And they said how do you want to grow? And I said I don't know. And they said, well, when you answer that question, come back, we're merging in, you're here. And so it allowed me to hire guys like Tyner and Zach, who a lot of guys we kind of grew up with the last 10, 15 years and I got to build something organically. And none of the guys had experience in mortgage. They had experience in life, they had experience in people, they had experience in how to navigate tough situations with people. And so I think that's probably that timing of I really loved mortgage.

Gabe Whitmer: 6:24

But First Bank open-ended it and just said, hey, what do you want? Go grow your own brand. And I was like, okay, and so it was probably some freedom to do that. It was probably the right time, the right place. And then when you're doing that, you're asking yourself constantly am I doing the right place? So it's you know. And then when you're doing that, you're asking yourself constantly am I doing the right thing? Am I treating my people right? Are we taking care of clients the right way? Why is it done like this, when we could do it like this? And so we constantly come back and go, hey, what do we need to shift and change here? But I think that timing is really kind of the boom.

Josh Zello: 7:08

Huh. So all of that came from a bit of an ethical dilemma for you. I'm sure that felt like a crunch too. A bit of suffering in there for you.

Gabe Whitmer: 7:18

You kind of feel like you're on the wrong side of Star Wars, right, you're like I'm not on the Jedi side like I want, and so, yeah, I can pinpoint that, because I was going to go the career route and see how long that took me and then it was like nope, not going to do it.

Josh Zello: 7:37

Yeah, you took a hard right, man. Took a hard right and built a culture and you kind of wove this in there. Built a culture with your friends.

Josh Zello: 7:45

I mean the first bank opened it up for you. You brought in people like you said that I've heard of or known, in the circles of all the overlapping circles that we have in life. You started bringing them in. And what was it like bringing your friends into business? You know, and I think that's probably I know you wanted to focus on friendship, sort of thematically, but I think you had this opportunity to really bring people with you as you built this wonderful life that you have in front of you, right? So what's it been like bringing friends in and the positives, and then also maybe some of the difficulties of navigating that in business, if you've had any of those pop up.

Gabe Whitmer: 8:25

So on the mortgage side it's been a lot of fun. So I had a couple people on my team already from an assistant standpoint or a support standpoint. We were up in Nashville seeing some friends who'd moved back from Buffalo Tiffany and Tyner and we were sitting and having a drink and Caitlin, my wife, was like Tyner, why don't you come work for Gabe? I kind of looked at her because she knew I had actually hired a guy. He came on, he was there two days, went back to his last place because they called him and offered him more money. At that point I was kind of like no, I'm done with this team thing, I'll do it myself. The reality is it takes teams to excel and do well and we need support. Caitlin looked at Tyner and was like why don't you come work for him or with him more than anything? He kind of looked back and was like okay, I went back to the bank and we wrote him an offer. He was the first one. Now we have a team of 14.

Gabe Whitmer: 9:33

I kind of like to lead and not manage. So I tell people I'm like look, I'm going to hop in with you when there's a problem. We're going to be there. I don't want to tell you how to do your job. I'm going to help you grow. We're going to be there. I don't want to tell you how to do your job. I'm going to help you grow, we're going to grow together. I tell people all the time I'm a great leader. I know I'm a great leader, but I am not a good manager. I have a life coach who gives me some management tidbits and he's great and helps me. I always look at it of how do we lead people, how do we help people. I don't want to come back and be like did you do? Xyz did, and so I think it's a fit, because we don't micromanage, but we it's. It's as close as a family, a work family as, as I've seen, and it and it's really cool because of that.

Josh Zello: 10:27

Yeah, I hear that. I mean in that I'm guessing you're giving your people a fair bit of autonomy right, not necessarily coming down on their heads, but also the gentle breeze behind the ship, Trying to move everybody along in a good direction and letting them steer at the same time.

Gabe Whitmer: 10:47

It's funny because it's mortgage banking. It has some service, has some sales, has some education, has a little bit of everything. At the end of the day, if you step back and just realize how much impact it has on people's lives from a security standpoint, from a wealth standpoint, from your kids have their own bedroom standpoint, it's really freaking cool, right, and so that part of it's great. But then to share that with a group of people and go, hey, when your kid's out of school at three, go pick them up right, Work when you need to and we work a lot, but we have the ability to step in and go, hey, I'm going to go to a volleyball game from four to six and I'm going to hop back on. Or I worked my schedule this way today and it's. You know, it's work hard, play hard, but let's just take care of people and love on them and makes it fun.

Josh Zello: 11:43

You built a system that your values can operate in. Yes, right.

Gabe Whitmer: 11:46

Yeah.

Josh Zello: 11:47

Yeah, and that you can stay attentive to those values and pursue them at the same time.

Gabe Whitmer: 11:51

That's right.

Josh Zello: 11:51

Yeah, including friendships in the office, friendships outside of family too, right. So that's something I appreciate about being in business myself too. I worked for Lee for years and before I jumped, I kind of jumped ship to my own practice, which the autonomy for me was unreal and it turned into a mission honestly to try and provide that for my employees. Counselors, you know, we're helping people through some of the most difficult times in life and oftentimes the companies that employ counselors don't treat them well and I think from some of my own experiences and my own ideology and my own values was just like man I would. I'm not just creating this for myself at this point, like I'm creating this for the counselors that eventually are going to be underneath me. One point that was a much larger number than it is now.

Josh Zello: 12:47

I'm kind of comfortable with where it is now shrunk it down a bit, but yeah, that being able to pursue your values and creating an environment where you can comfortably pursue them, both at work but then when you're off of work at home with the kids. And I'm curious for you, man, because again, like I said at the beginning, just sort of pulled to your personality and I think a ton of people are pulled to your personality. I mean, our circles overlap all over the place, right? So if I happen to bring your name up or somebody's like hey, do you know this person? Like yeah, absolutely, and they just their faces light up. Can you share a little bit about your values as a person, like if you were to think what are the things in life that I value? Maybe, if you want to break them into categories of family and business and friendships, what lights you up, man, like what are those values behind your sort of more positive approach to life, I think, and to relationships?

Gabe Whitmer: 13:43

Well, hey, I appreciate everyone thinking that and seeing that. You know, the reality is there's highs and lows, right oh?

Josh Zello: 13:51

of course.

Gabe Whitmer: 13:51

I work really hard to be a great husband, a great dad, a great friend and a great mortgage guy. I learned a while back I can't be good at everything else. I have interests right Like. You're going to take me fly fishing sometime and it's going to be great.

Josh Zello: 14:05

We'll get the boys together on the pond soon too. It's warming up.

Gabe Whitmer: 14:13

Yeah, I'll never be the best fisherman and I'm okay with that. Right, I'm okay being good at what I'm good at, you know. I mean, if you take those four things and you kind of go how, how do how can we impact people's lives and treat people? It comes back to that A little bit of kindness can change people's lives, right, and like I may not be having the best day, but I realized how I impact someone buying a coffee at the coffee shop or sitting down with someone, like they could have had a much worse day than me. If I can bring a little bit of light and smile, that's what I want to do. You'll appreciate this.

Gabe Whitmer: 14:50

My nickname in high school was Smiles. I could be being beat up on the football field and I was just walking off with a big smile. I don't know how many muscles it takes to smile, but I just try to smile constantly. But people need that right and they need people that show up and engage and care. And you know, like Robin Williams was one of my favorite people and we all know he ended his life tragically but he brought so much joy to people and it was free, it was, he was himself. Now there's mental health stuff there and there's stuff that happened. But I think that's it for me, is I just come back to? Can I, can I make somebody happy? So it's I don't.

Gabe Whitmer: 15:49

I appreciate that you say that people are drawn to me, like that's great, right, I want to be engaging and you need to hear it too. Oh, thank you, but I don't know, like I really don't know the core of it. I have you've met my dad, yeah, and my mom, absolutely. I have two great parents, dynamic people, um, they, they, they did what you did right, so like they're therapists and like they, like maybe, maybe there's a huge piece of that, um, yeah, but it's, I don know. We get the ability to be alive and I don't really care if you're working at McDonald's, as behind the register you're running, you know Vokr, right, and you're doing cars and Volkswagen, I guess would be Volkswagen, not Vokr. You have the ability to make change in people and improve, and so if you wake up and go, who am I going to impact today, it can be pretty cool. Well, that's beautiful.

Josh Zello: 16:55

That's a beautiful value Kindness, care. I hear compassion in that too. But also you kind of have to have eyes to see that right. You have to have eyes to see people that might need that kind of impact or just notice folks. Might be folks you know, might be folks you don't know. But if kindness is a high value, you tend to see people more, you tend to look up, you tend to think about giving more than you think about getting or receiving. That's really kind of what I heard in what you were saying too. I can't remember if it was St Francis. He said one of the only ways you can know yourself is by giving yourself away. And it's a powerful thing, man. When you're able to give to the people around you, even if it's just kindness, there's an element of yourself that you discover Right Like. There's like self-discovery and giving. And in our culture that's that's not necessarily front, that's not a message, that's front and center, you know well, we're guarded Right.

Gabe Whitmer: 18:01

We don't as a culture, we don't want to give a trade secret away or we don't want to open up the door where someone judges us too much. What you just said is funny, because I say this constantly is give time freely. And then the flip side is there's a boundary to that, which is until somebody takes advantage of it. But give time freely. It like somebody calls and says, hey, I want to learn how to I don't know how to fix credit, or I want to learn how to drive a car, and they don't know. Like it's not hard to say, yeah, I can, I can help you with that and you fit it into the schedule. Right, it doesn't have to be. You leave your family and you take time away. Like, fit it into the schedule.

Gabe Whitmer: 18:48

But yeah um giving freely.

Josh Zello: 18:51

I think is is a really cool aspect yeah, well as as, especially where there's this sort of subconscious return, you know you're not doing it necessarily for anything, um, but you wind up receiving inwardly this, this revelation of self like, oh, who am I and what have I, what am I made of? And yeah, I mean when you give it puts constraints on things, like it puts some time constraint. You coming here, you're giving your time to this right now. That means that you're missing potential opportunity elsewhere. It puts constraints on things and I think that that pressure actually squeezes some good things out of us, kind of like the ethical dilemma that you faced at AT&T. That sort of squeezed you into something better for yourself.

Gabe Whitmer: 19:37

Yeah, I know when you had coffee a while back and you were like, man, my caseload's huge and I'm running that and you loved it. But the other thing I remember you saying something like it's made me more efficient, right. So like the flip side of all that is you give time freely and you care and you're kind to people and you talk to them in the hallway and you give them some smiles, but it makes like when you give time away, it makes you more efficient of the things you need to do.

Josh Zello: 20:05

Yeah, that's a good thread in together, because it definitely has. Well, it takes things out of the peripheral. You wind up focusing on what actually matters, because your time is full and full of good things. I had this realization when I was like 35, which I won't give away my age right now when I was like 35,.

Josh Zello: 20:30

I wish it had come to me sooner and it was like the day after my 35th birthday and somebody asked me how I was doing and I was like I can't remember who it was that asked me. I wish I could place it. But they asked me how I was doing. I was like man. I can't remember who it was that asked me. I wish I could place it. Um, but they asked me how I was doing. I was like man.

Josh Zello: 20:46

I'm kind of stressed, I'm tired, I feel overworked, not necessarily undervalued, maybe undervaluing myself, you know and I feel like I have all this stuff that I'm running to and I don't have like a lot of my own vital energy to bring into places. I'm just kind of searching for something in me to meet needs, you know, just patching holes in walls. And after I said it, something hit. You know. You can call it a divine moment, you can call it an existential moment of realization, where something smacked me like really hard and I was like did I just?

Josh Zello: 21:23

I just complained about the things that the 25 year old me would have died for. So I just spent the last 10 years building all of this because it's exactly what I wanted and it's good, and I haven't realized it yet. I'm actually complaining about it and I get like I'm not trying to say like everything is sunshine and rainbows and we should just never complain. Complaining is a part of life. But in that moment, something got squeezed out of me, a very significant reframe of like my life is full of good things, my time is full of good things, my life is full of good things, my time is full of good things, and rather than perceiving them as needs that are pulling out of me, it's like no, these are things that I actually get to pour into.

Gabe Whitmer: 22:14

Well, and it's really hard to live in the day. It's really hard because every couple of days I feel like I'm setting new goals, but that means the goalposts keep changing. You have to sometimes go, man. I've made it this far and I've gotten to help this many people and I get to have my family right. And yeah, you said, a 25-year-old me would be really, really proud of 35-year-old me and you just got to sit back sometimes or acknowledge it daily.

Josh Zello: 22:45

Yeah, you know, here's where I am yeah, given that those younger parts of ourselves room to actually enjoy what they labored for.

Josh Zello: 22:54

And I guess that gets to some of the friendship stuff, because I'm really curious. We're talking about time, we're talking about this value of kindness and connection with other people, and I know you were telling me that you have been thinking about this idea of adult friendships, and having adult friendships requires kindness, connection, consideration, looking up, seeing people, valuing your time enough to also bring people into it. I mean, all this stuff just kind of dances right around the adult friendship stuff. So yeah, like what brought that up for you, man? I think I'm curious to hear more about what sparked that.

Gabe Whitmer: 23:33

It's fascinating, caitlin, my wife right, and I say you know Caitlin well but I say that for everyone listening has the last four or five years, I'll say something. And she was like remember, people are inherently lonely and they just need a friend.

Josh Zello: 23:52

Man. We have some wise wives we married.

Gabe Whitmer: 23:56

I'm glad we're doing this, but they could be here schooling us 100%.

Gabe Whitmer: 24:03

And so it's fascinating because, especially when you have a family inviting another family into your home, your kids have to engage, your spouse has to engage. It's not just if you're merging families for an evening of dinner or drinks or whatever that looks like. That's hard because you're not just trying to go. You know two dudes hanging out. But that phrase of people are inherently lonely is in my soul because they are Like they are, and so when you offer them a hand, people are very quick to to grab on um, and so it's funny.

Gabe Whitmer: 24:47

Someone recently we were at the baseball field and silas was playing and I was like, hey, we, you know, I was talking to him, I was like we'd love to have you over one night and they were like to to your house and I was like, yeah, like where else would that? Right? And they're like you want to hang out with us? Yeah, and what you find out is that most people don't really know how to do adult friendships. If they have a neighbor, that's maybe a friendship, close or not. They have some work friendships. But it's really hard to be intentional, and so it's been a lot of fun. It's been a lot of fun getting to do that and just realizing that we have an opportunity to be friends with people.

Gabe Whitmer: 25:37

It's been fun watching our kids have to engage differently. We were on the way to someone's house, like six, eight months ago, and the kids were kind of complaining Like we don't know them, who are they? And Caitlin turned around and she was like this is part of you being a Whitmer, like you're going to show up and you're going to ask questions and you're going to engage, and it doesn't mean you're going to be best friends, but you can smile and you can have fun. And they ended up sitting on the couch playing Mario Kart and chasing each other around the backyard. But it takes time, right, it takes energy, but it's what we're here for.

Josh Zello: 26:18

That quote from Kat too. I mean, that's well. From my work throughout the years, I can verify that I hear that so frequently. But also, I'm human and so I'm also lonely, inerrantly lonely. Thankfully, I have good friends in my life and good people to connect with, and I am super grateful for that. I could always do a bit of a better job reaching out and connecting more often. Yeah, it gets spun up and two weeks goes by and I'm like, oh, I haven't responded to that text. Need to respond to that text. I'm notoriously bad at that and that loneliness is, but if we recognize it in ourselves, I think it does poise us to realize that other people are feeling similarly, Because I think the thing that holds me back, and probably holds most people back, is assuming that the other person actually isn't interested.

Gabe Whitmer: 27:14

Yeah.

Josh Zello: 27:14

Right. It's like, oh, they probably have their own friend groups or it would be awkward if I engaged this. Or like I haven't talked to this person in two years. They probably have their own lives, probably aren't interested in hanging out. But if you assume the baseline is that they want to right that there's something innate in them that is calling out for that, it makes the ask a lot easier. I would imagine, you know like I've never really thought about it that way that the baseline is hey, this person is probably dealing with loneliness just as much as anybody else, and the throw the lifeline like throw that out there. It makes me think too. I don't know if it was Viktor Frankl, maybe it was somebody else. I'm having trouble remembering who I'm getting quotes from. I get all jumbled up. That's because I'm getting older, but man it was. Man's greatest desire is to be known and man's greatest fear is to be known.

Gabe Whitmer: 28:13

Yeah.

Josh Zello: 28:14

It's like our greatest desire and our greatest fear are the same thing and I think that does create the loneliness, especially internal loneliness. If you don't have the most kind dialogue internally, that loneliness turns to something quite dark.

Gabe Whitmer: 28:30

Spot on. I love that quote, by the way, and one think about this too the last 10 years of social media has really taught us that if you don't have the same opinions, you shouldn't be friends, which is crazy, right, because people, people like, marriages are built on differences, friendships are built on differences, and so we've kind of allowed pieces to to change and go oh, if you're not, if you're not this person or this sect of people, maybe you shouldn't hang out with this sect of people and it it's so wrong, like it's. You know people want to engage and they, you know they they want they, they want to be like, they want to be seen and they want to be able to have, have that connection. And I think you get you confirmed it right People are lonely in in getting to help people and treat people. I get to see it as people move and as they move to an area and they don't know people. And so I'm in the small men's group and it's called People Over Profit, right, it's called POP and it's great.

Gabe Whitmer: 29:43

And there's a guy in the group who showed up and we were just chatting after and he's like you know, my wife's made a ton of friends. He was like I just don't really. He was like I haven't gotten to do a lot. I was like, well, when are we getting a beer? And so we set a beer for two weeks from then and it's coming up, but like it's not, you know, it's, it's, it's, that's, that's fun, right. Like it's um, now, and this is your world. Like, if you're introverted, you know, then you have to decide how to, how, how do you charge up for that? Like, because you can, you know, like I can, as an extrovert, I just fuel on that.

Gabe Whitmer: 30:23

So like I can like recharge sitting down, yeah, but you know. But again, it doesn't have to mean you're having people over at your house till midnight. It doesn't mean you don't set a time and you say, hey, I'm going to, I have an hour, can we do this? And you don't set a deadline for it. You know there can be really good boundaries on creating friendship, giving time freely engaging people. But yes, if the baseline is everybody's lonely, then it's not a big ask.

Josh Zello: 30:54

No, it's an easy ask.

Gabe Whitmer: 30:55

No, people are busy. That's the other thing. You might get someone that's like I'd love to, but I'm really busy. That's probably truthful.

Josh Zello: 31:02

Well, and that speaks to our culture, right, we value productivity over connection, right, and that's okay. I mean, I'm not even shaming that, but I think that accentuates it. It's like here is my innate desire, like my greatest innate desire, and here's an opportunity to meet it, but I have stuff to do. That's right. That's right and I totally understand. I mean, you know, I've got three kids and they're all in sports and running around all over the place At a ball field every night doing laundry.

Josh Zello: 31:36

Absolutely yeah, laundry, gosh or not doing laundry, and then panicking when you go to find it like jerseys finding jerseys.

Gabe Whitmer: 31:43

Where are the?

Josh Zello: 31:44

jerseysys. Thank goodness we have multiples. But yeah, I think our culture and maybe even in a more capitalist society I guess that it's normal is to value productivity over everything, because I think we're taught to some degree in that environment that our value is based on our productivity, which is kind of scary. It's motivating in some sense. But when you talk about connection with people sitting down, making friends, having a conversation, that's not the typical productivity that we've been taught to pursue, which is, I think, another reason I appreciate you and why I'm excited that we're talking about friendships here, because I think you do this Well.

Josh Zello: 32:27

I know you have a ton on your plate, but you're carving out time for this stuff. And there's a specific question in here, like what happens if you don't Like? I'm sure there's been times in life where your head's down and then you look up a month later and you're like I've had little one-off conversations with people at various places, or I have my family at the office, I have my family at home and, especially as a man, what happens to you when you don't engage with friends?

Gabe Whitmer: 32:58

Yeah, it's a really really good question, um, it's a really really good question, um, cause that's what happens is my line of work gets really busy about February and runs through December, right, and so normally what happens is when I step back I realize I'm I'm just a little bit sad, I feel like I've missed something, and I think the flip side of that is you can overextend yourself and say, oh, I'm going to give time freely and let's just schedule all this stuff, and then you're gassed. And so there has to be this balance between what your family needs, what you need, but there's a lot of. I don't know like it fuels me to have people engage in my life and being able to engage in people's lives, and so when I don't have that, I miss it.

Josh Zello: 33:56

Yeah, well, it's like you run out of fuel. Yeah, it's like running on fumes. And for me, what I notice is I dialogue with myself a lot Like my internal dialogue of self just goes up because I'm not talking to anybody other than my clients and my family. I create a friend in there that I'm bouncing stuff up of. That's not typically there. Now, what's tough about that is our internal world is full of critics too, and so if you slip into a bit of a lull, a little bit of a depression, feeling that isolation maybe you've been making some unhealthy decisions with the body at the same time, because that usually coincides you know that inner critic can turn up and maybe even convince you that it would be a burden to reach out to someone, Right? So I hear things like that a lot, but I appreciate you answering the question Honestly. I know it's a tough one.

Gabe Whitmer: 34:53

No, yeah, yeah, here's a question for you. Okay, so you have what I would consider one of the most stressful jobs because you are people's airbag that's how I'm going to call it right. People slam in and you come out and make sure they're okay, right, and I watched my dad his whole career and he handled it really well. But you handle it really well. When I get stressed, I at least have my, my other guys I can talk to and you know I have all these people to bounce ideas off of. But, like, how do therapists handle? Cause you are, you're the support for so many people, right?

Josh Zello: 35:36

Yeah, that's a great question, man. It's a great question about and it speaks to something that I really I don't know I was confronted with. I talked with Julia about it, I actually talked with my therapist about it too, and some of the ways that I feel like being a therapist fundamentally changes you as a person. You know you can't and it's not necessarily what I think is helpful to make clear Necessarily. What I think is helpful to make clear, both to anybody listening and for our conversation, is it doesn't necessarily feel like the things that I'm hearing change me. You know I tend to do, between you know, five and eight sessions in a day. I just really prefer to stay in the zone, to move through, to be with people, and what that kind of intentionality does to me does to my wiring like five to eight hours of very intentional focus, showing up with as much presence as I possibly can, dealing with my own stuff in real time and like compartmentalizing as we move along so I can stay present and share relevant feedback and pull ideas when ideas come, and pull quotes and pull names and also foster a sense of a relationship with someone, because for me as a therapist, the relationship is what is most fundamentally important, the rapport that's being built, the fit that's growing between us. How does all of that shape me and play out?

Josh Zello: 37:12

When I meet someone for the first time on a soccer field, right, and my whole day is what I just described and someone's asking me about the weather, I'm so used to kind of being down in my body, down in my mind and present with folks that sometimes it's where I see it. We don't have to go down there all the time, but but it's like I'm, it's, it feels sometimes like I'm. I've like biologically rewired myself to do that. And so I was uh, that's a really funny little quip but uh, on emma's soccer team there's a this uh, she's got a player named nova who she came over from CFC, I think you probably know. Yeah, yeah, I was meeting her dad. It was like our first conversation ever. It was at a practice and I chuckled at this and he probably thought it was the most random thing.

Josh Zello: 38:16

But we wound up in an hour like going down this existential landslide of an idea about stoicism, right, and I could tell every once in a while they'd kind of look at me and I'd look back and like yep, I know, I know man, it happens, but I think that in regards to friendships, in regards to relationships, I think that's the sort of difficult I don't want to call it difficulty it's not necessarily difficulty, it's just something else I have to be mindful of being able to shift gears and meet people where they're at outside of my office. There's definitely ways in which I'm affected by that aspect of my work and then also being present with what people are bringing in to the work, because there is a heaviness to it. I don't want to say I'm unaffected by it. That is something I learned earlier in my career. It was actually around an election. I got into the field right around an election time like people bringing in a lot of feelings around that and I.

Josh Zello: 39:27

There's something about that period of time where I realized I'm not going to make that, I'm not going to make it as a therapist if I can't trust people and so a big part of things. Maybe this is something even your your dad, I'm assuming is recognized, because he seems like a pretty chill guy for having done this for so long. If I don't trust my clients to do the work on their own, if I don't trust them with their lives, if I don't trust them. To be honest with me, I will carry everything around with me all at once. I have to be able to hand it back to you after while you're leaving the session. You know I have to trust that you walked in here with this and you could hold it. Hopefully it's a little bit lighter leaving, but you're you're you're going to have to hold that too and I hold space for it to return. You know, that's kind of how I view it.

Gabe Whitmer: 40:19

I like that. It's just triggered a thought and and I and I wish my dad could be here to share this real quick, quick story he was working at a child psych ward and they were short-staffed. Chaos broke out and one kid got out and ran away. This was like 48 years ago, right, 45 years ago. He's freaked out and he, he finally gets everything settled down hours later and he, he calls his boss and he's like you know, I just don't know what to do. And his boss is like listen, milt, next time everything seems like it's going wrong, I just want you to go lock yourself in a closet for 10 minutes and don't come out. And my dad was like what? He was like it's going to catch on fire, the kids are going to explode. And he was like well, if you don't do it, I'm going to fire you. And my dad's like 22 at that point, right, he's like finishing a master's degree.

Gabe Whitmer: 41:27

And so the very next night, short-staffed, something happens and the other thing his boss said is you have to announce it. And so he walks out and he goes. I'm going in the closet for 10 minutes and like walks in and he's like literally like shaking, like he's watching his watch and it hits 10 minutes and he walks out ready to put fires out and the kids are sitting there and they're playing and everything's calmed down. I say this as a parent sometimes, but sometimes I have to remember it's going to play out okay. We can't control our clients. We can't control people. We can give them the tools, we can care about them, but we can't own their stuff. That story sticks in me daily where it's like I can only help guide people. I can't make them.

Josh Zello: 42:20

That's influence right.

Gabe Whitmer: 42:21

Yeah.

Josh Zello: 42:22

And you can influence a situation, but you certainly don't control it right. And I think, man, okay, this ties into friendships really well, because I've had really long-term friends. But I think one of the reasons that I've that's worked is because there's an acceptance on my part and on their part that, like friendships wax and wane. There are seasons of life where you can be really close to one another and then there are seasons of life where you're spending less time, maybe there's more literal distance. I can't control how available someone else is for me or not, and if they are or are not available for me and I am available for them or not, that actually doesn't have to mean anything. That doesn't have to mean that they don't like me or that I don't like them or that our friendship is over. It just means that it's waned a bit.

Gabe Whitmer: 43:18

Yeah, so my best friend since second grade is Chris Chaney. We own a series of coffee shops in the Upper Peninsula together, right so like. But I remember he, I was a freshman in high school, we were inseparable, and I called him and I was like, hey, I'm not going back out for football. And he was like, okay, and so I flipped to basketball full time. He, he ran football and he got super involved in his youth group.

Gabe Whitmer: 43:46

I got super involved in my youth group and like a couple years went by, where you know we're, we sit together at lunch but like we weren't hanging out outside. We were right, it was casual and senior year kind of came back and then a couple years into college kind of came back. And then a couple years into college kind of came back and it was an intentionality to check on each other. And then he got married. I was his best man, I got married, he was my best man. Some years I see him a lot, some years I don't, and we run a business together. But we talk business when we talk typically. But it was super cool.

Gabe Whitmer: 44:23

We were in Detroit, we went to a Lions and a Red Wings game and I knew he was in Cleveland for a Browns-Chiefs game and I had messaged him and, anyway, long story short, he was like, hey, I'm walking through security now Let me call you later. I was like what security? And he was like Detroit. And I was like, look up. And he walked through and looked up and his son and him were there and Caitlin and I were there. We're like what? That's amazing.

Gabe Whitmer: 44:53

But yeah, friendships to kind of come full circle, I think that's. It's funny to me if somebody says a friendship stopped because I don't know what would stop a friendship. If I have a need, I try to reach out and say, hey, would you help me with this? And that takes some communication and it takes some willingness. Or, hey, I miss you, can we set a call? It can be a couple weeks from now. But I think friendship doesn't mean you're together right Like the show Friends. We don't live in that world. Should you be able to pick up and just enjoy the friend you have, absolutely. And so that's going to come and go a little bit.

Josh Zello: 45:35

Yeah, and I think we have to have an acceptance of that in order to have long-term, to have those long-term friendships, have long-term, yeah, to have those long-term friendships. Um, I I'm I'm curious too, man, what is, I think, especially with adult friendships like, let's say, someone's in their mid-30s, late 30s, early 40s trying to trying to amass a few more friends, which is actually something that I hear about really regularly? I think there's some confusion for people on when someone moves from, like, acquaintance category into friend category. Like what, from your perspective if you need to take a little time to think about it too, what tips the scales for you from someone being an acquaintance and someone that you're friendly with, kind with um, to like moving into the friend category, maybe a little more trustworthy, maybe a little more desire in you to spend time with him? But I like, what are some of the things that you think? Yeah, this, this is usually what tips it over into friendship for me, so really, yeah, that's a great, it's interesting.

Gabe Whitmer: 46:50

As you were, you're kind of asking the question. I think there's a couple of things. One I think I automatically assume everybody's my friend and it. Maybe that served me well, maybe it hasn't. And if I end up sharing something that's personal and it it goes the wrong way, I just accept that the friendships not quite what I thought, right Like it's. I've just learned I'm not going to take it personal, it's just not what I thought. And that doesn't mean I don't like the person. It doesn't mean we don't hang out, but I think I just automatically kind of dive in.

Gabe Whitmer: 47:29

Some neighbors moved from Chicago into the neighborhood and we'd hung out with them once walking the neighborhood. Our kids are the same age and they're like you want to come over, and so we went over and had a glass of wine. They're showing us the house and we're like 30 minutes in and I just blurted out something funny and inappropriate at the same time and they burst out laughing and I said, look, there's this test, and if I don't know where we're going, I'd rather learn early if I need to be super sensitive to something or not. And he brings this up every two or three times we hang out because he'll be telling someone and he's like Gabe told this joke and he uses it as a barometer and obviously we passed the test. But it is kind of true, like I don't, I must, I'm going to assume everyone's my friend and if it, sometimes it doesn't work out how I planned. But I'd rather set the bar where, where I think, and maybe that's like that wholehearted jump in, um, it served me fairly well yeah.

Josh Zello: 48:38

Um. Well, to be truthful, I like that and I think that there's potential pain that can come from that. Right, you're making yourself pretty vulnerable out of the gate in that assumption. However, I think the pain of wondering about the status of a friendship across all platforms is much worse than the potential of occasionally getting hurt by someone, the mental torture of wondering are we friends, are we not friends? Does this person appreciate me? Does this person value me or not? It's just like I'm going to blanket assume that until I'm shown otherwise and then I can reshuffle where this person belongs in my life. I think that I can see where, in certain circumstances, it makes you vulnerable, but on the other hand, I think it actually saves you from a significant amount of mental torture, and maybe that's why you're so approachable. It's just like that sort of baseline assumption.

Gabe Whitmer: 49:45

I will tell you. What can get me in trouble is I'm a pretty well one we haven't talked about this and we can, but I'm very competitive. So there's this hum, there's this like I want to be humble, I want to be approachable, but I'm super competitive. But I'm I'm also a huge prankster. I can get myself in a lot of trouble because I'll I'll cross lines in the name of being funny. Uh, so I have a neighbor who I'm hoping doesn't listen to this huge clemson fan. I'm a huge, huge Ohio State fan. When he goes on vacation, I am replacing his Clemson flags with Ohio State flags. Right, Very minor. He will come home, he will laugh and he'll text me a ransom or he'll light it on fire, Like I don't. It'll be funny and that's like the low level. But we've several times snuck into people's yards, put inflatable, inappropriate inflatable blow-ups and, like for Halloween, there's these two skeletons that when the wind's not moving they're just sitting, but when the wind's moving they're inappropriate.

Josh Zello: 50:42

They're dancing.

Gabe Whitmer: 50:43

And the whole neighborhood knows about it. You have to gauge sometimes, like how will these people feel about it, and so a lot of times, like that's one of my love languages, If I'm pranking you, you're up there right on my friend scale. But I've got to also acknowledge there's a lot of people, especially as adults, that don't like that. I do play the internal game of am I crossing a line? Because I don't know how they'll feel, and if I think in any way it's going to be bad, I just I don't do it and I don't know. So there's still. There's still. There's still the conversation of like should I do this?

Gabe Whitmer: 51:19

But if I just assume everyone's going to be my friend and they want to be my friend.

Josh Zello: 51:24

I think that's a safe baseline assumption, man, until proven otherwise. And you're hitting on a really important point here too. I mean, friendship and relationships are a dance. We can think about your skeletons. We're kind of always lipness testing each other. I mean, it's been months since you and I sat down and had a serious conversation.

Josh Zello: 51:49

Right, there's a new you in front of me in some way, honestly, and I have to not just assume that you're the Gabe from 10 years ago. I have to get curious. I want to know you in this moment and what the last few months have looked like. And I can ask that directly or, like we've done. I can turn that into a conversation, you can turn that into a conversation with me. That's just a little bit more organic than how's the last 10? Well, how's the last 10 years been if I hadn't seen you in 10 years? But how's the last few months been? It's like well, tell me about you. You know like. And that's where I again I have to. That's my dance with people is because I can, because of what I do, I can kind of go straight into that territory a little too quick. There's a, there's a dance there, and I mean like there is with anything in life same with marriages.

Gabe Whitmer: 52:45

Well, and I'm glad you said marriages. So you know you aren't who you were when you married Julia and and we all, yeah, right, and and it's so one. So one of my close friends' grandpas got up at his wedding and he was like I've been married 52 years. I'm not who I was when I married your grandma, dan right, and he went on. He was, like you know, five years in I had enlisted and da-da-da, and 10 years in she got into quilting and I didn't care about quilts, but you know he was like I learned to enjoy what she learned to enjoy and she learned to enjoy what I learned to enjoy.

Gabe Whitmer: 53:22

And every couple of years we would look up and go man, our interests have changed and for, like Caitlin and I, and for you and Julia, I don't know if you would have convinced me 10 years ago that being at the ball field every single night was enjoyable and if that was seen as fun. But now I've found a way to make it fun and I love watching my kids play sports, but I don't necessarily love sitting there from a distance watching them at a practice that I can't see. But I've made it fun. And if I get to have Caitlin with me, we'll pour a glass from a distance, watching them at a practice that I can't see, but I've made it fun and if I get to have Caitlin with me, we get to pour a glass of wine and sit in the truck bed and we just find ways to do that. Friendship is like that where, like Silas' soccer coach is into Legos, silas is into Legos.

Gabe Whitmer: 54:08

I'm not that big of a Lego guy but I can talk it and I can enjoy it and I can look up cool videos and you know, it's okay to go down some like, hey, that may not be what I like, but I'm going to find a way to learn about it. Like, I'm going to find a way to engage in it. And maybe that's just what makes some people a bad friend is they don't engage in something they don't know about. I don't have tattoos. I love tattoos. I don't have tattoos. Some friends who have them want to talk about them. So I like, I'll look up different types and you know, like, hey, I learned something. Am I going to get tattoos? Probably not, but I love that they have them. I think that's the dance of being willing to acknowledge that people change and you can grow together, you can grow apart, and I have some friends that probably have some problems in life and it doesn't mean I'm not their friend. I still show up, I still engage, I love to be around them.

Josh Zello: 55:13

You know, you ride that wave of people and in that way and I think it's important to hit on to just in relationships, marriage, kids, uh, friendships is, and work relationships, I I think one of the things that tips someone into the inner circle, let's, let's assume everyone's friends. Yeah Right, I like that baseline, I want to start using that. And there are people that tip into the inner circle. Right that they're close, that's right. They're like in your life.

Gabe Whitmer: 55:45

They know where the bodies are buried, right.

Josh Zello: 55:46

That's it. I think what causes that tip, for me at least, is there are subtle natural ways in which the relationship starts feeling reciprocal.

Gabe Whitmer: 55:57

Yeah.

Josh Zello: 55:57

So we just start showing up for each other. It's almost there is an ask, but at the same time it's like someone kind of has a read and just knows, kind of knows when to show up. Yeah, same. And then vice versa. There's this sort of reciprocation and maybe an interpersonal piggy bank. I had a supervisor that told me about this and she said, josh, there's an interpersonal piggy bank between all people and you know, you can make deposits in that and you can make withdrawals.

Josh Zello: 56:31

And an important part to know about friendships, about relationships with your clients, about relationships with anyone, is if you ever plan on making a withdrawal, you should make sure that you make deposits. And a withdrawal could be a difficult conversation. It could be showing up a big ask like can you guys show up for half a day and help us move all our stuff into a new house? That's a bit of a withdrawal, but I want to make sure we're putting things in it. And sometimes we can tell when someone needs to withdraw out of it, but they're not asking and so we just give yeah, right. I think that's the moment that people start tipping it. The bank starts building, like the account starts building, you know.

Gabe Whitmer: 57:12

So I, the bank, starts building, like the account starts building, you know, so that I think that's out of his needs her needs the love bank.

Josh Zello: 57:17

Oh, I think, yeah, yes, it is Okay, got you.

Gabe Whitmer: 57:19

And it's a book on marriage. But again, if, if you view marriage as relational and friendship, right Then. But I love what you said, like it's true, right, and I don't know. Also, I don't know, I think I can, I think this is PC, I think I can say this Kind of grew up to where, like if guys checked in on each other, they'd be like, oh you're stupid, right.

Josh Zello: 57:44

It's so crazy, it's so crazy to me, like now.

Gabe Whitmer: 57:48

I'm like I don you having a good day. Sometimes I was just like, yep, you good. And some days they're like, hey, you have time to hop on a call. But the check was really easy and it's the reciprocation of it doesn't have to be. You don't have to do that every day, you don't have to do that every week. Giving touch points is just an easy thing. We do it with our kids, we do it with our marriage. You don't have to do it on the same level, but you know, if you're thinking of someone, shoot them a quick text speaking of kids, I feel like having kids has actually made me a better friend in a lot of ways.

Josh Zello: 58:24

You actually hit on this of almost requiring yourself to be interested in what your kids are interested in, and there's and and showing up to the baseball field night after night after night after night. That's a gift to your kids and it cycles back to what we said at the beginning of the podcast is, when you give, you actually realize who you are. And, oh my goodness, have I realized who I am in becoming a father man. As I give to my kids, sometimes selflessly, sometimes begrudgingly. It's not always rainbows and sunshine. I think what that's allowed me to do is have a lot more patience with people in general, including with friends. It's like, well, you're interested in this thing, man, my son's really interested in Roman history.

Josh Zello: 59:16

Avid is my oldest. He could go for like an hour on the Romans and I'm like, uh-huh, I'm like interested, I'm like interested for like the first 12 minutes and he knows it. Like I'm trying, we're here, I'll pull up Google and we'll Google. And he's like, dad, what about this? I'm googling, you know, we're, we're with it and that's not. That's not something I sat down and intended to do right, but I I'm developing a bit of a friendship with my kids at the same time. Like the principles still apply, and for me I want my kids to feel that from me. It's teaching me, and then I think the same stuff gets overlaid in my friendships in some way. And then it's vice versa too. I think my friends also teach me how to be a good father.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:00:01

Have you found that middle school also teaches you how to be a good friend, like? It's like? I'm watching my daughter. She's always had a consistent group. They're shifting right, friends are coming in and friends are kind of leaving. And I've had to say the same thing to her. I say, just because so-and-so is not talking, because you're not in a class right now, it doesn't mean they're not a friend. And you also learn in watching sixth and seventh grade. Maybe we don't have to talk as much about people. I find that a lot If a friend is have to talk as much about people, right, like, like. I find that a lot is like if people, if a friend is trying to talk about another friend, I'm like, hey, what you talk to them, like. But I don't really want to engage in it and if there's a problem I'll I'll referee a little bit and help. But that like sixth and seventh and freshman, like that kind of early where they want to talk about each other, what, what good is that? Right, what's it?

Josh Zello: 1:00:56

do, it doesn't do.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:00:58

No, it doesn't Going straight to a person.

Josh Zello: 1:01:02

You know that while teaching a kid that early and yeah, absolutely Like middle school is is is the wild west socially, you and and, and and. In our, in our kids school I'd probably do this in yours too every quarter they're, like you know, switching classes, switching schedules, and then every year they might get put in a different type pod and then they don't see the same people. So there's this shuffling around for them, and, yeah, they are. So they're also at the age where they're becoming just a little more self self aware of how people are and they're also developing personalities and they can get annoyed.

Josh Zello: 1:01:44

Yeah, before it was kind of they just get angry, right? Kids zero to 100. And just you know, it was just anger or it's just like high levels of frustration and crying and weeping and gnashing of teeth. Well, by the time they hit middle school, they have these sort of sub-level emotions before they hit like full-blown anger. Right, it's like annoyance, irritated, upset, sad, hurt. The spectrum is growing, right.

Josh Zello: 1:02:13

So to teach them hey, you can communicate those emotions to another person or you can just communicate to another person what's actually going on and get clarification and figure that out. You don't have to, like talk to each other about another person that's getting under your skin. Yeah, gosh, that's so important for friendships too. But especially at that age and I think you're hitting on a point that's worth acknowledging too I think the principles that we're talking about, the ideas we're talking about, they definitely apply broadly.

Josh Zello: 1:02:46

But some of the limitations of our conversation is, I think sometimes female friendships are different, you know, and so I don't know that I necessarily have a lot to contribute to that, but I think it's important for anybody listening just to acknowledge relationships in different groups also have nuances, right, and someone's experience of relationships could differ vastly from what we're talking about right now, and also the recognition that sometimes trauma and past hurt are tied up in attachment within friendships. But I still I do believe the things that we're talking about broadly are definitely helpful. I'm curious man. I want to be respectful of your time too.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:03:29

Are we at an hour?

Josh Zello: 1:03:30

Well, we've been plugging it in for an hour and 15 minutes, I like it. So I want to be respectful of your time, but I'm curious. I know this is. I think this is a good question to start to move towards the end with. In what ways do you feel like your friends have shaped you to become who you are now? Maybe it's just a story, maybe it's an idea, maybe it's a feeling, but what comes up for that question?

Gabe Whitmer: 1:03:59

So let me say this I don't think friendship is defined by age. And so in the last couple years there's two guys, one kind of high-level C-suite oil exec, retired. He's become a little bit of a mentor for me. And then I have a guy who's about to retire and I just enjoy their friendship and they're probably 30 to 45 years older than me. So that's been kind of a cool thing. The last couple years.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:04:32

My best friend, chris Chaney you heard about him earlier coffee shops. I did a lot of traveling with him and his family on vacations. He was an only child and his dad. We'd get up and see if Chris would want to go grab breakfast. He'd still be asleep and so we'd go and eat at the hotel breakfast and he would just sit there and talk to me about business or life or the city we were in, and it's kind of that perspective. Friendships are broad and they can carry different ages, different thoughts, different ideas. If you've ever heard the song I think Ben Rector sings it, but Old Friends it basically talks about how you can't just make old friends.

Josh Zello: 1:05:22

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:05:25

And so I have my group from high school and they're great. We have the group from college. We have the group from college, we have the group now and just showing like all of that, when I look at it just showing up right, um, I've had buddies, houses burned down, I've had people lose their wives, we've had right, we've all seen divorces and just being able to be able to answer the phone and you know, kind of been a key theme.

Josh Zello: 1:05:59

Shown up for you, taken time for you, mentored you and been there for you in so many ways Shapes, yeah, shapes how you do life. Yeah, shapes the perspective, shapes how you, and that, honestly, might be why some of your perspective, which I really appreciated today, that the baseline is. You know, everybody wants to be my friend and I'm going to assume that that's the case. Maybe that perspective comes from all these friends that you've had throughout the years. And, yeah, friends definitely shape perspective. I know you shaped mine. You know, and hopefully we're shaping each other's with the conversation you know what I mean and spreading a little love out to the universe at the same time, cool. Well, man, any other thoughts or questions come up for you, or anything here at the end that you feel like you want to throw out there in regards to friendships?

Gabe Whitmer: 1:07:04

No, so I do think this is a funny, you know, because we started talking about being on your deck, right, that's how we started. Because we started talking about being on your deck, that's how we started. We've had a lot of our daughter's soccer teams in a wrangle. Now Players change clubs. I'll leave everybody with this. I got a call from one of my friends that went from our club to your club. He was like man, you weren't joking. That Josh guy is just as chill as can be, and I was like he can be and they were like man.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:07:38

He's like Zen and it was funny because it's somebody that's very loud and can be loud and I can be loud and I was laughing. I was like you'll get him at one point being loud, catch me on the roof. But he was like man, he's a great guy, get him at one point. Just, you'll get him at one point being loud, but catch me on, you know. But it, you know, it was very. He was like man, he's a great guy and, um, I don't know, we, you, you have such an ability to touch people's lives and I appreciate that oh man, thanks kid, yeah, thanks.

Josh Zello: 1:08:09

Yeah, I appreciate. I appreciate that encouragement. Take it in I. I've been working on that the last 10 years, trying to actually take in encouragement. I appreciate that for sure and the feelings super mutual. Thanks for the time bud. Yeah, thanks for having me. Also, is there anything as far as where people can find you? I'd like to say take a second plug yourself.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:08:35

So, yeah, listen, I will always hop on a call and talk to everybody about ideas or thoughts or business ideas. So like my cell's easy 423-584-5155,. Right, so that's one. So you can also like Whitmer W-H-I-T-M-E-R teamcom Whitmer team. That's our mortgage landing page. Read reviews. We lend in 46 states. We love what we do. We have fun. Contrast Coffee Upper Peninsula, michigan. You can order online. If you are in the Upper Peninsula, which is if you've not been fly fishing up there, we've got to go. I was ice fishing, I was a wuss, I sat in the tent the whole time. It was cold. But Contrast Coffee, there's five locations. They're fantastic. Ultimately, I want to again want to try to be as accessible as I can for people and be a resource, and I'm happy to be. Awesome man, happy to be.

Josh Zello: 1:09:41

Awesome. Thanks so much, Gabe.

Gabe Whitmer: 1:09:42

Yeah, thanks for having me.